As the title suggests, this is the 200th post on this blog (thanks to Laura, Son of Moses, Kapila and others who have contributed to the total). Maybe this is a good time to reassess.
When the blog started as "Free the Teaching" last April, I was personally motivated to make a nuisance of myself. The "whyaretheydead" message board had forced St James and the School into positive action, and having participated on that board for about 3 months, I had had enough. Being an "out" member of the School on there was no fun at all, unless you're one of those people that enjoy sports like urban hang-gliding, traffic-dancing or javelin-catching. Even so, it seemed absurd that it was the only place to discuss the School openly and honestly.
I also had the view (which I still hold) that the School's problems are not due to mystical blockages in the divine ether, or demonic evil-doing behind the scenes, but because we are not getting things right. The reason we are not getting things right was that we have not listened properly to the Shankaracharya and, instead of that, interpreted his words in a special way that was less threatening to us. I believe that is the real reason why the School has been so reluctant to release the Conversations to its own students before they have heard them several times in a group context. By restricting access to the Conversations except via the tutorial voice, the School has been able to control our understanding of the Conversations. By the time a student gets a copy, his understanding of their contents has been thoroughly prepared.
This is not sinister or dishonest. It is human nature, expressed in a rather paranoid way. I've detailed extensively elsewhere my views on this, but to give you an example, the School has traditionally had a very possessive view of its members. It was a jealous god, and anyone who left the fold was to be regarded as 'fallen'. Someone trying to be associated with the School without being an active member was believed to be benefitting from the sattva of others without doing the work. Friendships within the School were based on truth, and so if someone left then what would that friendship be based on, except a lie?
All of these ideas are plainly ridiculous, as well as impractical. It creates paranoia and shame among the members, and anger and bitterness among the "leavers".
But even if we were disposed to ignore the evidence of our own eyes, we could have listened to what the Shankaracharya told us about the two kinds of disciples at the ashram. The first kind ("inmates") remain there, working all the time under discipline; the second kind live their lives and only attend when they feel the need to do so. There is no distinction in what he says between the two. It is a matter of the needs of the disciples, and not of the needs of the ashram.
This issue has been raised with our leader and he has responded. The parties earlier this year were generally felt to have been a success, and no doubt over time the old scars will heal and a proper relationship with our members past and present will be established. Other initiatives have appeared in the past year and are under way that will fundamentally alter the way the School functions, and I believe that on the whole these changes are for the good.
It's not relevant to wonder whether the existence of this blog has made a difference. The question now is whether it has a place in the present situation.
It has seemed in recent weeks that the blog has begun to lose its way. Discussions about the merits of "other paths", have not, to my mind, added a great deal. Those that have chosen to go elsewhere are welcome to it and we wish them luck, but this blog is not the place for them to advertise their new affiliation or to compare it to the School. It's a bit like a discussion forum on the future of the Church of England being taken over by people who have left its gentle bumbling behind and converted to something more radical and uncompromising, let us say Islam. Maybe the grass is greener. As I am sure you have heard,
There is a happy land far far away,
Where they have ham and eggs
Three times a day.
But this blog is, I am afraid, about the School.
Those that believe, on the other hand, that because this is all a dream there is therefore nothing to do or discuss should perhaps not take part in the discussion. This blog was created with the view that there is work that needs to go on (aaargh ... language becoming more impersonal ... and ... dead ... must avoid ... linguistic elephant-traps), all right - I believe we need to do some work - no-one will do it for us - to clear away the obstacles. If you don't share that view, fine. Just don't use this blog to tell me off about it.
Another thing the blog is not for is providing 'inspiration'. Reading this blog will, regretfully, probably not help you to become self-realized. It will never be the group evening you wish you had. Group is for self-realization. Blog is for exploring how the School is, and how it should be (based on philosophical principle), and how the gap can be closed. It can still be fun, of course, but let's not forget why we are bothering.
Am I being unreasonable or preachy here? I probably am, but I'm just doing my best. I'd rather be a Socrates-type mosquito, irritating people into life a little bit, than persist with habitual error. The School is very good at continuing in a straight line, and unfortunately it does tend towards tamasic repetition unless someone breaks ranks. That means someone has to play the part of breaking ranks, for the good of the School. While remembering that it is just playing a part.
Again, I feel that after 200 posts the blog has somewhat lost its way, and we need to have a think about it.
Should we:
(a) stop, given that the School is changing rapidly and radically?
(b) replace the blog with something less personal to me, such as a bulletin board, or an edited newsletter which seeks contributions from interesting people?
(c) replace it with, say, a monthly or bi-monthly informal meeting?
(d) try to replace it with an official regular meeting?
(e) your suggestion here
Thursday, June 14, 2007
200th Post
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61 comments:
Very nice post sir! And despite what you say about inspiration, the summary and re-statement is from inspiration.
I share the sense of wondering where we are going and I think the willingness to ask 'What is the measure?' & 'Is it time to stop?' is commendable. One could get attached to the adversarial identity (who me?).
I still think we have problems. Lots of them. But I'm less inclined to bring them up here and more inclined to try to confront them in-situ.
Like the recent Gandhi quote...
"A 'No' uttered from the deepest conviction is better than a 'Yes' merely uttered to please, or worse, to avoid trouble."
...this is still a challenge. It's so tempting to just think, "Can't be bothered to argue. Is it time to go home yet?". But, to challenge - not for the sake of being argumentative, but because there is a genuine challenge - must not be allowed to die.
For example, I shared recently in group an experience where there were 'no answers', just an unknowing expansion, a sense of mystery and the associated freedom of this. Although this was initially accepted it wasn't long before we were back trying to stuff the experience into a tiny conceptual box. (Tutor waits patiently until someone says the magic words "it's consciousness" then we get that warm and comfortable feeling reminiscent of the bedtime hot chocolate in the geriatric ward.)
Should the blog continue and if so in what format? I don't know. Better to kill it than bumble on directionless. Alternatively, if the discipline of 'speak only when necessary' is maintained, then the tool is there waiting in the shed to be picked up or put down as necessary.
Thanks.
Dear Kevin,
A good post, but I, for one, would miss the old School blog.
There is nothing to replace it. It is a useful and vital forum for tortured and unconvinced School members.
I still maintain, however, that few seem to be interested. It tends to be a conversation in single numbers.
This does not surprise me. It is simply more evidence, if evidence is needed, of the lack of intellectual activity in the School.
It seems that those students who don’t leave the School after a while due to sheer boredom are the sort who are happy for others to do their thinking for them. I am not even apologetic when I say this, since it is so plainly true.
I expect it dates back to the time when the founder would publicly shout off the head of anyone who did not agree with him and privately engage in round-the-fireplace character assassinations of those who did not toe the party line.
I happen to believe that this was not what His Holiness had in mind for us. More’s the pity.
Nor, in this respect, do I think that the School, as you put it, is changing ‘rapidly and radically’. There is some change, but to fold up our tent at this stage would be premature.
As you know, I have always been interested in the idea of a forum where, among other things, we could post interesting websites etc., since one answer to the School’s intellectual apathy would be to expand our interests and open our view of the world at a time of amazing change and open-mindedness and also to engage in dialogue with others.
I know that you may see yourself as too busy to take such a thing on, but you have done a terrific job so far and are a very good writer – witness the letter to which I am now responding.
You are also independent minded and fearless enough to be able to see what is happening and say what you think. This is very important since it keeps the door open to truth. So, please keep going. Maybe, little by little the audience will gradually arise.
Maybe one suggestion would be for the regular participants to drop their pseudonyms?
Those that are brave enough to post here do set a good example for others, but it would be better if it didn't seem so cloak and dagger. I think many people are put off by that impression. In fact the leadership is in favour of the blog, so why don't we move on?
I think that we need to "be the change we want to see".
I understand if you are worried about what people will think, but maybe the best way to change fixed notions is not to argue with them, but to show that there is an alternative. If you show you're not afraid, then others might take that step.
The present membership is small because it is the miniscule centre of a Venn diagram, where the set of 'School People' overlaps with those of 'Capable of Independent Thought', 'Computer-Literate', 'Literate', 'Time on Their Hands' ... it was never going to be a big number.
A few years ago I made a private inner application to join the School of the Future. In the School of the Future things have already become as they ought to be. The School has fulfilled the Shankaracharya's sankalpa that it should reach its full realization. People can not only physically say what they want, they know they are supported in doing so. It is about knowledge and enquiry, not about parroting dogmatic ideas. It is about love and devotion. It is about enthusiasm and inspiration and fun, not duty.
Since I was accepted to join the School of the Future (and my membership of the old School is now merely nominal, though still expensive), I have found that the old ideas that dog the organization are not really my concern. Sometimes it can be uncomfortable when one comes up against the old stuff, and forgets that one is just speaking to a ghost of school past; but mostly people are glad to see that one has moved on. They like to receive postcards from the School of the Future.
You can apply, if you haven't already. Not to me, obviously - but if you know where it is, you can get in touch.
Kevin said...
"... we have not listened properly to the Shankaracharya and, instead of that, interpreted his words in a special way that was less threatening to us ...
Spot-on!
Son of Moses said...
"Nor, in this respect, do I think that the School, as you put it, is changing ‘rapidly and radically’."
Exactly. As far as the understanding of the teaching is concerned, the surface has barely been scratched - and this is where radical change is required more than anywhere else.
"As you know, I have always been interested in the idea of a forum ... I know that you may see yourself as too busy to take such a thing on ..."
The debate about the future of this blog may be redundant, since the School appears to have decided to set up its own online discussion forum (apparently starting with a Plato discussion group). A School-run forum is likely to attract a lot more students than this blog (which I suspect has very few readers), and will hopefully be moderated along well-established lines of 'best practice' (rather than someone's personal agenda), in service to Truth (however 'threatening' to our current interpretation of the teaching).
Some people seem to play the part of one who has to walk a long
difficult way home. They plod, plod, put one foot in front of the
other, until at last the sense of muscular effort, of making
themselves go on, seems the only thing in the world. Finally they
come opposite their house. They have only to turn in and enter. But
they do not notice, because the effort of plodding has become so
inevitable that they can't imagine anything else. So they keep right
on going, on, on, on to nowhere".
-Rodney Collin
.
Kevin said:
"In the School of the Future...people can not only physically say what they want..."
I understand the spirit of what you're saying but I still think it is necessary to be mindful of the varying needs of the audience with such statements. "Say what they want" with the proviso that the intention is to arrive at the truth? Then the discipline is at the level of the bhavana and not an inner list of "things we are/aren't allowed to talk about"?
Kapila,
In the School of the Future the view is that people want what is good and real and true.
;-)
And by the way, we all have emission-free rocket cars.
Please continue. As SoM has said, it's too soon to fold up the tents. If anything has been freed in the School, that was formerly stuck, has it stabilised and been tested and assessed as yet?
I don't think so - and my evidence is that various practices introduced only recently have yet to filter through the levels. This makes sense - try them out on those most obviously receptive and if they work and are welcome then spread them wider.
An example only this week, which I described in the previous post (A (w)hole to look through), should alert us all to how far there is to go.
Current methods of 'teaching' - just to take one aspect of the School's approach - are deeply ingrained. There is still a pedagogical desire to instruct and inform, and this is likely to hang on a long time given that it accords with human desires to be in the right and know best.
You have to consciously decide to seek an alternative route towards freedom before you'll even contemplate giving up the known way.... or most people do (and that probably includes me).
Another example of this occurred yesterday evening. Staying with me is a Portuguese lady who's attending an NLP course in Hammersmith.
I asked her what she had been doing today and she told me this: the exercise had been to consult inside as to behaviour one wished to get rid of but couldn't. In her case it was shouting.
Everyone works in pairs but part of the exercise is for one person to come to the stage and be quizzed. Yesterday it was her.
To tell you about the details would take too long and, in any case, I suspect 'you have to be there'.
The main route is establishing a conversation - by reflection - between the conscious and 'that which is not conscious' in order to discover the springs of action. After a little questioning she realised that shouting was a protection for her. The 'tutor' continued to ask questions - and the skill here is in the kind of questions - and she continued to ask inside. Then in a moment of revelation she understood she didn't need protection.
I asked her, 'Did he ask you if you needed protection?' 'Oh no,' she said, 'That would never have worked. He never leads.'
'Will you remember this when you're at home?' I asked. 'I don't have to remember,' she replied. 'It's all there. What's behind this is that we do know but we need to set up the conversation.'
You may think this is a fairly trivial example but for me it encapsulates a method as it might be, and is potentially highly creative and liberating.
This blog is read by many more people than actually contribute. You only have to click on the tab at the bottom of the page to see this - and other interesting facts about the readership.
You ask, Kevin,about pseudonymity. The name I post under is not the name I was given at birth. But I find it liberating to use a different name. I'm quite open about it to anyone who asks, but it's very refreshing to be free of all the associations tied up with my 'real' name. So, it's not cloak-and-dagger stuff. And anyone can take part.
Hi Laura,
There is however a distinction between saying that:
(a) all of the School's issues are now sorted out (which is not what I am saying)
and
(b) there has been a marked change in attitude, and a far greater willingness to listen, which perhaps means perhaps the irritant of the blog isn't needed indefinitely.
Of course there is still a great deal of work to do, but that doesn't mean the blog is the way to do it.
There are indeed more people who read this than contribute. What I would say is that if those people value the blog, it's time for them to speak up and tell us why! Or alternatively if you think it's a disgraceful waste of time and a flagrant display of ahankara, you could express that also.
If you're in the US or South Africa or Australia or deepest Lincolnshire and are a regular reader, then it would help us right now to hear from you.
If the blog was just an irritant then I wouldn't be interested in it. I perceive it as having a rather larger function, that of hosting a conversation not otherwise available, and that of assessing and exploring School practices that is not otherwise available.
I don't think we should be too concerned about numbers. On the other hand, K, you're the blog's creator and minder. If you'd welcome a pause that's fine by me.
But that doesn't mean I don't value our meetings.
I am in South Africa and stumbled onto this blog some months ago. Having followed the WATD forum for the last few years, I was very much saddened by the fact that the most open and honest discussion of the school and its ways and direction was to be found on a "critical" forum, and not between fellow school members, or in the formal meetings and structures of the school itself. This fact alone was enough to leave me quite despondent about the future of the school. Add to that the whole list of problems (that I have noticed being discussed on this blog or at least am quite sure, reading between the lines, are understood by the people contributing here) that I have observed over the years. Add also the relative isolation from the school in London and schools around the world, not really knowing whether my school is the only one with these problems, or indeed whether I am the only one thinking along these lines, not knowing what other school members think, especially those "close to the centre".
It is hard to explain the sense of relief I experienced when I came across this blog. It has given me a lot of hope knowing of the changes that have already apparently taken place in London. Hopefully these will in time filter through to the rest of the schools as well. Some of the comments make reference to moves underway or drives taking place to improve or change things in the school. The contributors seem to know what is being talked about, so I assume these are fairly well known (about) in the school in London. That also sounds positive.
The long and short of it is that if it was not for this blog, I probably would have finally given up on the school (after 25+ years) in recent months. I am not fully convinced yet that the school will be able to save itself soon/ soon enough/ at all, but that is another topic.
So, Kevin, whether you keep this blog in its current form/ change it/ stop it, please know that it has definitely helped some people. Thanks!
I just wanted to acknowledge Alf's heartfelt response before moving on to perhaps more mundane matters.
Regarding Kevin's initial post. In response to:
(e) your suggestion here
As I have said, I appreciated Kevin's re-statement of the blog's purpose and I accept to keep this focussed. But how would it be to link up a series of blogs (keeping this one for focus on discussion about the school)? Suggestions:
a) one for sharing events, recommended websites, book reviews(?) etc. This is not intended to divert people to other paths/organisations but to offer other expressions of the perennial philosophy.
b) a discussion board for items such as science, origins of language, current affairs etc.
c) I was quite keen on the idea of a philosophical humour blog but it could get out of hand...!
The suggestion is not for Kevin to administrate all this but interested parties could take up the suggestions or variations of them. I know Laura has been keen on an events listing in the past, and Son of Moses would like to share recommended websites.
Also regarding Kevin's initial post. I have been reflecting on the suggestion to give up anonymity. Well I think many have probably sussed who I am already from some of the 'subtle' comments I get, but I think my primary reason for retaining anonymity is not to protect myself but to protect others. If people know who I am and I make a comment about tutors, for example, then my tutor will be immediately in the spotlight. Similarly, other observations will be limited to the circles I mix in & it would be quite easy to identify individuals. I don't want this. It is difficult enough already to filter the experience such that identities are obscured. This would become much more difficult.
Also, I think the anonymity is a good leveller of status. People don't have to start sizing up where someone is in the school as to whether they have a legitimate opinion or not. I am sure there are other less 'pure' reasons for my anonymity but it isn't all cloak and dagger. If people think this, that is their concern.
Dear Kapila,
I don't have a clue who you are, but I agree with all you say.
Kapila - like SoM (who I do know)I've no idea who you are and that's fine by me. I also agree with all that you say about the advantages of anonymity.
Until you've tried anonymity, you don't realise the benefits.
Can't see us setting up separate blogs, however. This one is quite enough for me!
Kevin said...
"Discussions about the merits of "other paths", have not, to my mind, added a great deal".
I am not aware of any "other paths" having been discussed here. I have noticed, however, that when a particular interpretation of the teaching of Advaita Vedanta or of Shantananda's words makes you feel uncomfortable, you tend to dismiss it as "another path".
"It's a bit like a discussion forum on the future of the Church of England being taken over by people who have left its gentle bumbling behind and converted to something more radical and uncompromising, let us say Islam".
It's more like pointing out to a bumbling Church of England that this is not about itself, jumble sales and afternoon teas, but about the Gospel and Christ's teaching. This can of course come as a bit of a shock to CoE members who have grown used to 'gently bumbling along' with whatever events the Church lays on.
"Maybe the grass is greener ... But this blog is, I am afraid, about the School".
No, it's not. It's about the Truth, and a true understanding of the teaching of Truth. And when the School is in conflict with the teaching, then the School needs to adapt and not vice versa.
"Those that believe, on the other hand, that because this is all a dream there is therefore nothing to do or discuss should perhaps not take part in the discussion. This blog was created with the view that there is work that needs to go on ... "
I am not aware of anybody saying that no work was needed - merely that the idea that liberation depended on 'doing something' or 'getting somewhere' or involved anything 'sequential' or 'causal' or was a 'result' is the 'obstacle' to liberation (because it assumes a path where there is none). The falling away of this idea IS the falling away of the obstacle IS the work; this is obviously not something one can 'do', as this would put one firmly back on a 'path', but about radical 'stopping' (or 'stillness', or 'peace').
"If you don't share that view, fine. Just don't use this blog to tell me off about it".
This is not about telling you off (gosh - any unresolved issues with daddy, by any chance? :-), but about sharing our different insights into the teaching. And I will continue to do so, as and when appropriate, within the parameters of this blog, as long this blog is public and not censored.
Laura said...
"This blog is read by many more people than actually contribute. You only have to click on the tab at the bottom of the page to see this - and other interesting facts about the readership".
There are obviously more readers than contributors, but "many more"? The sitemeter doesn't give the number of 'unique visitors', for some reason, only the 'number of visits' (i.e. 10 visits by the same individual reading the same post 10 times are counted as 10 separate visits).
Also, I have noticed a very large number of visits being only a few seconds (many even zero seconds) in length, indicating that many 'visitors' are not actually 'readers' - they are most likely 'blog hoppers' using the 'Next Blog' button in the navigation bar at the top, or are referred by a search engine, deciding within seconds of arriving that they are not interested.
So why this small number of readers, after this blog has been active for over a year, and despite of the large number of potential readers?
The feedback from approx. 10 people in the School, who have visited this blog and with whom I have discussed this, is practically unanimous:-
- too much stuff is published that has nothing to do with the School (e.g. Rostropovich / Respecting Gaia / Why We All Have a Novel in Us posts), and they don't want to have to wade through all that stuff
- most of what is published and does relate to the School is peripheral to their concerns, and what is of central concern is treated as peripheral.
As far as the second point is concerned, the blog was principally set up (in Kevin's own words) in recognition of the following:
The School has not listened to His Holiness - this is the root of all our problems. We've listened to the words, but ignored the message. We need to discriminate between what is customary, and what is essential - there are a lot of things about the School that do not make sense. They persist because we are sentimental about "our" way of doing things and refuse to examine it rationally.
All seem to agree that these are the central issues. But the people I spoke to seem to be under the impression that 'Freeing the Teaching' has somehow been reduced to celebrating changes in dress code, whether groups sit in circles, new tutoring methods and styles etc, whilst deep and radical discussion of our current understanding of the teaching is discouraged (or encouraged only within very narrow confines).
I realise that the 10 people (all S-level students) may not be typical / representative for the School as a whole.
Let the Self prevail - there is no need to search for it.
- Shantanand Saraswati
.
A few things to respond to ...
First of all, it's very good to hear from Alf in South Africa. It sounds like your experiences in recent times have had a lot in common with my own, and those of some others here. It would be good if the blog could be a way to share more experiences from around the world. So I'd be interested to hear more from you, Alf, and others if possible
Re - anonymity ... I do certainly take Kapila's point about remarks about the tutor. This was a problem I ran into the moment I told someone who I was ... that person was immediately indiscreet and someone else then read a post in which they were mentioned, written while under cover of anonymity. Even so, I do think it's better to be 'out' ... it just means you have to think about what you write. I do of course also take your point, Laura, about anonymity (or pseudonymity) being liberating. However, for me this blog is about doing something for the community of the School and not about liberating myself as such. Maybe a while ago the blog gave me licence to say things I would not otherwise have said, but now there's nothing I'd say here that I wouldn't say to the leader of the School, or to anyone else. And since he does read it, that is the spirit in which I write.
Rudi, we will just have to agree to disagree. This blog is about the School and it's also (by the nature of the medium) to some extent a personal diary for its members. You may not like it, but I'm afraid that is how it is. If your 10 friends want to make comments, they're of course very welcome, but one actual remark will carry a lot more weight (and will be more helpful) than the reported views of the entire Senior level.
It's a little-known fact that if all of the 'private rebels' in the School were placed end to end, they would look very silly indeed. But I'm still not sure we could persuade any of them to utter a word of their personal opinions in public.
Rudi said:
the people I spoke to seem to be under the impression that 'Freeing the Teaching' has somehow been reduced to celebrating changes in dress code, whether groups sit in circles, new tutoring methods and styles etc, whilst deep and radical discussion of our current understanding of the teaching is discouraged (or encouraged only within very narrow confines).
I confess I have some sympathy with Rudi’s position here. I was always fairly ambivalent about dress code or sitting in circles one way or the other. I do appreciate that changes in presentation may free people up a bit and not feel like they have to sit passively waiting to be told what the truth is, but all of this can still be fairly ‘surface’ level.
My chief problem with engaging with Rudi’s proposition in a serious way is that I have never had access to the conversations. I don’t know what the rules concerning their access are, whether they have changed? I thought the policy was that we had to hear the conversations orally first but I have now heard rumours to the contrary? To be blunt - there was a time when I was keen to read them, then I got fed up waiting and decided what is the difference in reading Sri Ramana, Ramakrishna, Sivananada etc? To be more blunt – I also can’t really accept that specific answers given to a specific individual at a specific point in time are true for all people, all situation, all times.
To be more blunt still – when you hear (I think it is ’65 conversations, probably about third question) the muladhara cakra being interpreted by tutors as being at the solar plexus or even at the crown of the head, I can’t see that I can be in greater danger of misinterpreting the conversations through my own stupidity than being misled by the stupidity of others. If there was even the slightest ‘intellectual curiosity’ that Son of Moses reminds us is so lacking then it wouldn’t take very much research to clarify the above point. Never has the colloquialism ‘arse about face’ been more clearly demonstrated. Exactly who is being ‘protected’ from what?
Kapila,
If you are agreeing with Rudi's perception (and that of the Senior level, apparently) that I have somehow been duped into believing that changing the dress code is tantamount to all of our problems being at an end, then I would take issue with that.
Certain 'surface' signs do create powerful effects. Conversely, when the sign is changed it can be an indicator that things have changed at a deep level. However, for me the only reason to applaud these changes is that I believe they do indicate that the present leadership regards its role as leading, and not just following what the previous leadership did.
At the same time, I have consistently asked (here, as well as verbally) that more clarity be given as to what the principle is behind any change. Change without principle is a certain road to ruin.
As for the other issue, it is disgraceful that you have not had copies of the Conversations. There is a man I know who has been in the School for 30 years, and is quite senior, who was only given them last year! He previously got bootleg copies from a chap somewhere in the Outer Hebrides, who wrote them all out by hand, probably in quill pen.
As I say, it is unacceptable and you should ask your tutor and stream head what justification there can possibly be. If they don't remedy the situation then you should take it to the top. They will listen. I think at this stage that it is more a matter of benign neglect than of wilful denial.
I can cheerfully report that I was able to celebrate my 20th year in the School with, for the first time, a complete set of the Conversations.
Kevin said:
"Those that have chosen to go elsewhere are welcome to it and we wish them luck, but this blog is not the place for them to advertise their new affiliation or to compare it to the School."
Can't help feeling this is a swipe at me - and it feels a bit unfair. As you may know, my husband Richard is a faithful and committed member of the School, and we naturally engage very often in conversation on spiritual matters, including concerns relating specifically to the School. I am and shall remain a staunch friend and supporter of the School, and as such I take an interest in how it's getting along. One of the things I felt it needed to do (though I acknowledge this is not really any of my business - I write as a sympathetic bystander only) was to engage with the wider spiritual community that exists now all over the planet. When I was a student in the School I was very struck with the sense of isolation in regard to that community. It certainly used to be the case that its mere existence was not even acknowledged, or known about. Only about four years ago I personally heard a senior member of the School remark that the School was the only source of the Teaching in the world today. (At the time it so astonished me I didn't even manage to say anything.)
So I thought perhaps there was a place in this blog for people like myself who could bring a different viewpoint, or approach, to people's attention. It was never my intention to 'advertise'. I respect your choices as much as I hope you respect mine. I just think it's possible that the School could learn something from others. Fortunately I know there are many people in the School who are now becoming receptive to other ways and other ideas.
However, perhaps I should now bow out anyway. It looks as though I may just have outstayed my welcome...
I wish you all possible blessings in your further explorations.
Hi Katharine
Like you I am generally disappointed when people say that the School is the only way or spiritual path or whatever one calls it.
I didn't mean this to come across as a swipe at you. I know you don't like words like "advertise", "promote" or "sell", but in my view they do apply to what you do with your teacher as much as they do to people who are on some School "advertising" committee. I do not see this as a bad thing, it's just necessary. Furthermore, I do believe that it is important for the School to make friends with other organizations, such as your own, and where appropriate to work together.
That is one matter. Whether this blog is the place for such co-operative activities, I'm not so sure. My own view is that the School needs to come to know itself better, and this is somewhere for quiet reflection, discussion, debate etc.
I'm sorry if I've got a bit sensitive about your Gangaji-related contributions, but I would hate for this blog to be a kind of lobby for the disenchanted, where the wavering can find a new home. I know you're very happy about your new direction, but I don't really think this is the place to talk about it.
The blog is somewhere for 'School' people (however that is defined - and it includes you if you want it to) to talk about the School and the tradition to which it is affiliated.
I have found your contributions helpful in the past, as I said bridging the impassable generation gap between the School's "management" level and the rest of us. What's more, you were in my limited experience one of the few who actually spoke up
with a different voice, even back in the old days. So for that reason, I would be sorry if you decided to bow out.
It's interesting to me that (almost) none of the XYs/H stream people have seen fit to take part. I suppose that they have too much invested in their position to want to question things much.
Today I read the following words of His Holiness, which as so often happens were timely and pertinent to this individual.
We are not getting anything but we do try to achieve ungetting all things which are a hindrance to Self realisation. To reach this unchanging state we do need to exchange all changing things for the unchanging.
Everything that appears in creation exists in time and space implying evolution and dissolution.
The School, while it too is subject to the laws of time and space, at present provides the structure, the framework for the gathering of like minds to pursue, question and refine the discrimination between the changing and the unchanging.
Obviously there is the sanskrit terminology for this but for me it would be just throwing in words too often used without full understanding. Too many words, too much striving for 'realisation', too much preoccupation with the need for more members. Perhaps when we get our own house in order by exchanging all changing things for the unchanging we will be able to provide the rest so desperately needed by so many.
There is - I hope - further room for discussion of the role of this blog.
To take but one example. I understand Kevin's view of it as not being a home for the disenchanted. Why set up a tributary when you could swim in the mainstream? Why sour the waters with disaffection?
But this is assuming that the teaching is of river shape. Suppose it were more like the sea? There'd be room there for more than the School in its current pattern.
I certainly appreciated hearing from you, Katherine, and it's unlikely I'd have gone to the Gangaji meeting if you hadn't posted details. I don't think I - or others - should find that alarming.
Rather we can enrich and enlighten each other. I'd prefer a bigger umbrella, given a choice.
To find other 'teachers' nourishing, instructive and life-affirming is not to cast a shadow over the School. On the contrary, it affirms what I think we all believe, that the School is not the only conduit of teaching. We know it isn't so why pretend otherwise?
A little nudge from time to time will quickly steer us back to consideration of the School, that being the main purpose of the blog.
But a reality check from outside the subtle School walls is essential, in my view, and all invitations are welcome.
So, please, Katharine, visit us from time to time. Let's be hospitable.
Hello Althea, it's good to hear from you.
Too many words, too much striving for 'realisation', too much preoccupation with the need for more members. Perhaps when we get our own house in order by exchanging all changing things for the unchanging we will be able to provide the rest so desperately needed by so many.
What I take from this is that you feel the School is too rajasic and acquisitive. I would agree with that, and also with the view that we need to "get our own house in order". Plainly, as you say, the need in the world is for a taste of the unchanging, and if people are to be able to receive that then it can only be given by those that have tasted it for themselves. It can seem as though if we focus on maintaining the "framework" we are thereby forgetting about the essence.
I wonder, though, if this is such a danger to us. If one were a 'bureaucrat' who had never experienced the peace of the self, then maybe. But for someone who knows the way home, as I take you to be, the self will not be forgotten in the midst of activity.
The problem is that the activity is too often directed by the aforementioned bureaucrats - those who specialise in activity because they fear the unknown self. I believe that the spiritual people ought to bestir themselves a little, or at least pretend to do so. They will not lose the peace through intelligent activity (how can true peace be lost?): the people who need to stop moving and discover peace are the bureaucrats.
Thank you for your thoughtful comment.
As a regular reader and very occasional contributor to this blog, I am sure that something of value to the School would be lost were it to disappear. Every reader is indebted to Kevin for setting it up and for being a provocative and perceptive editor/monitor.
Taken almost at random, reasons to continue include:
1. Its existence is, in itself, an agent of change.
2. There are innumerable topics still to discuss in depth (even though some may already have been touched on in passing) eg the place of spiritual discipline in the 'new' School; should the School not reconsider its objectives, then formulate policies before embarking on new practices; innovative tutorial methods; generational change . . . and so on endlessly . . . .
3. It is, almost incidentally, a useful information exchange.
4. There is nothing which fulfills a comparable function and many interesting voices might be less widely heard in its absence.
Why don't we all tell our groups about it: if it were more widely known more might read and post?
Interesting to note that it is approved by the leadership. A blog disapproved of by the leadership might also have much to offer.
Kevin said...
"Rudi, we will just have to agree to disagree. This blog is about the School ..."
What exactly is it you disagree with?
You said: "... this blog is, I am afraid, about the School".
I said: "No, it's not. It's about the Truth, and a true understanding of the teaching of Truth. And when the School is in conflict with the teaching, then the School needs to adapt and not vice versa".
Given that the blog description itself says that this blog is about both the teaching and the School, and given that we agree (hopefully) that the teaching is more important than the School, what is it you disagree with in my statement?
"... and it's also (by the nature of the medium) to some extent a personal diary for its members".
It is in the nature of a blog about the teaching and the School that it should include personal stuff unrelated to the teaching and the School? Beats me.
"You may not like it, but I'm afraid that is how it is".
It's not so much me who dislikes this (I am posting here, after all), but it seems it's a contributing factor to putting off people who feel the blog is 'all over the place' and has 'no focus' (to quote a couple) (could they possibly be the same people whom you suspect don't show up because they "don't want to question things much"? :-)
Katharine said...
"One of the things I felt I needed to do ... was to engage with the wider spiritual community that exists now all over the planet. When I was a student in the School I was very struck with the sense of isolation in regard to that community. So I thought perhaps there was a place in this blog for people like myself who could bring a different viewpoint, or approach, to people's attention ..."
Absolutely. I feel your contributions have thrown light on both the teaching and School practices, and I therefore hope that you will continue posting. Kevin likes to portray himself as 'radical' and as someone who 'questions things', and this may be true as far as methods, techniques and presentational matters are concerned (which, I agree, are not unimportant); but he is very much one of the old guard and pursues a highly protectionist and isolationist course when it comes to questioning our current understanding of the teaching.
Kevin said...
"I'm sorry if I've got a bit sensitive about your Gangaji-related contributions, but I would hate for this blog to be a kind of lobby for the disenchanted, where the wavering can find a new home".
Hmm, I see you are busy extending your 1984-style 'Newspeak' vocabulary:
So far we had:
"another path" (any interpretation of HH's teaching outside your comfort zone)
"people don't want to question things much" (people not contributing to this blog)
"(silly looking) private rebels" (people not contributing to this blog)
and now:
"disenchanted and wavering" (people questioning the traditionally accepted interpretation of HH's teaching)
"The blog is somewhere for 'School' people ... to talk about the School and the tradition to which it is affiliated".
Oh, I see - more 'Newspeak':
"the blog ... is to talk about the School and the tradition to which it is affiliated" - argument used to dismiss contributions outside your comfort zone, even when they are directly related to the teaching or the School
"... the blog is ... also (by the nature of the medium) to some extent a personal diary for its members" - argument used to justify contributions inside your comfort zone, even if completely unrelated to the teaching or the School
:-)
It is so simple that the complex structure that is involved
doesn't want to leave it alone. That is really the problem.
-Krishnamurti
.
Remember me? Perhaps not. I'm afraid I'm one of those occasional readers who don't have a lot of time to compose erudite contributions. On a previous occasion I was just working my way up to a warning to artists not to think of themselves as special - for which I had amassed some splendid arguments - when the pressures of that thing called life got the better of me.
So here we are some months on and I have to say I'm very glad that the blog is still going. Which sort of answers one of your questions, Kevin, albeit begging the next question: glad, why?
Well, because it's there. Because a little voice of dissent or of persistent questioning, or of objective analysis means that the regime in which it shifts and wriggles cannot be entirely tyrannical. It means that within 'The School' there are those who do not swallow whole and undigested whatever is dispensed from the pulpit nor so fear their place or position that they are unable to express their own very independent views. And if there are some there might be many. It means that one perception, at least, of the SES can only be partially true if true at all. (Unless you're just a ruse to make us think there's thinking going on - which I doubt.)
Although 'The Old Man' was indeed famous for roasting people over the open flame of his considerable rhetorical powers, I recall him also as someone who welcomed an argument. He stuck up for his case, that's true, but my experience of arguing with him suggests to me that all he wanted was for his interlocutor to be equally as strong and passionate. I'm sure different people have different memories but my point is that the School has always been a place for debate even about its most fundamental values. But we have to use it as such. It is no good just accepting everything given to us as true because it's been given to us. The day that happens is the day the school dies and in so far as it has happened to some extent ... well, we can see the damage and smell the rot for ourselves it's obvious enough.
You also wonder if the blog is now superfluous since many changes have taken place and everyone is far more comfortable with an atmosphere of open enquiry and casual smiles. Um, I'd say hang on in here for a while yet. The Tory party under William Haig underwent a huge transformation when they all turned up for their party conference in jumpers. Some of us had never seen some of these people in anything other than a neatly pressed suit and carefully chosen tie. But sadly the jumpers weren't enough. They're still trying. You see, I wonder if this new-look huggy feely SES isn't all a bit David Cameron trying too hard. Tutors use the word 'fun' and admit that they watch TV. The canon of acceptable music is sprawling so exponentially it wouldn't surprise me to hear the Non Nobis choir breaking into 'Good Vibrations' some day soon. Well, maybe not. (They are a great choir, by the way, sorry Bruce etc.) Last weekend I saw one of the old guard who used to stride corridors with a scowl directed at any lesser mortal who happened not to step aside quick enough peeking around the place with a cheeky grin. Cheeky grin? As convincing, I'm afraid as Douglas Hurd in a v-neck. But and it's my big but (sorry, I'm still chuckling at Anglicans leaving their bumbling behind) it's all in the right direction.
There was a comedy sketch years ago, I think it might have been on the Dick Emery show (before your time, Kevin). There was a bunch of hells angels on motorbikes, loud-mouthed and thuggish. Then one of them takes off his helmet and pulls open his leather jacket to reveal a dog-collar. He announces that the time has come to reveal himself. He has ridden with them, drunk with them, fought with them and hopefully been accepted by them but all along he has in fact been a vicar and now wants to tell them about Jesus. They stare at him for a moment and then another one takes off his helmet and reveals a dog collar, saying, well actually. Then another and another. Until they are all revealed as vicars. Comic brilliance. You see my point? I think more and more 'School' people are taking off the exterior trappings and revealing themselves to be actually quite amiable free-thinking people.
So it's a bit of both. On the one hand, the pressure needs to be kept up so that the School really does shed some of the old nonsense. But I think what we're finding is that more and more the free-thinkers are standing up and declaring themselves. (This isn't a plug for Jesus, by the way, that was just an illustration.)
Your blog is a part of that.
As for artists thinking they're special ... John Lennon lost it when he called himself an 'artist'. Up to then he was a human being full of compassion, understanding, observation, wild brilliance and inspired melancholy. The label killed him. Thanks, huh, Yoko. So beware the label, that's all what I was saying, okay?
Oddjob. Hmm. If I'd called meself Mnemosyne or something you'd have all taken me more seriously.
Rudi,
Re: your last post [25]
I suppose anyone contributing to this blog has to accept a fair amount of criticism if they are defending the right to criticize aspects of the school. Therefore, I would also defend your right to question Kevin's stance. But there is an awful lot of use of the word you. Do you think we could de-personalise the argument a little?
"We must always seek to ally ourselves with that part of the enemy that knows what is right."
~ Mahatma Gandhi
[btw - nice Krishnamurti quote Rudi]
Oddjob
Re: Cardigan's, David Cameron & other utterances of satirical brilliance - thanks. I'm still laughing.
Not that I knew Mr Maclaren, but I find your observation, that he welcomed a fight, to be highly plausible and good to know.
Also from Rudi's post:
...a contributing factor to putting off people who feel the blog is 'all over the place' and has 'no focus' (to quote a couple)
I can't really accept this as legitimate. The blog is not an organisation that is presenting a particular 'nicely packaged' answer to our problems. The blog is made up of whoever decides to get involved. Hence, it's never going to be structured in this way.
The criticism is more than a little passive. If there is something else to bring or a different voice to be heard then bring it and speak it. The above quote is an 'us' and 'them' scenario where the 'them' are conveniently placed in one container and rejected as collectively directionless. We aren't an organisation with an agenda. In fact, none of us can even legitimately use the word 'we'. The blog isn't one voice. It's a forum.
I suspect those of us that post things would welcome more focussed discussion on the subject we have put forward - but you never can tell how people are going to respond can you? Who is responsible for that? Everyone that contributes, everyone that reads it, everyone that has something to say but doesn't speak.
This is getting interesting.
People I never knew existed are climbing out of the woodwork making it obvious to me why the blog should continue.
Without doubt it has a long way to go and any progress entirely depends upon us, but there is no other forum that is comparably 'inter-stream', immediate and independent of vested interests.
As for Kevin's offbeam contributions, thank God for them. The more unpredictable and surprising we are the more the teaching is likely to be working naturally.
More of us should chime in with our own.
To restrict our conversation to the 'radical truth', as some might like to do, would be to become boring, unreadable and very, very predictable - all sure signs that it wasn't the truth after all.
Son of Moses,
I decided to post the "novels" thingy because you had asked me more than once to post some of the stuff I've been researching. It didn't really get much of a response, but it's always worth trying something different once.
Oddjob,
Great to hear from you again. I couldn't agree more about John Lennon, although I think in his case he was an artist who got nobbled by an 'intellectual'.
Sorry, I meant to respond more fully but life intervened, as Mnemosyne, sorry Oddjob, would say.
Oddjob, I very much enjoyed all that you had to say. Even if I don't always express myself as well as I should, it's good to know that people do (mostly) understand the intention. Then it becomes less about any individual and more about what we all get out of it and bring to it.
As to whether I am a "ruse" by the establishment, that comment sent me into a brief fantasia in which I saw you as the kind of chap who enjoys nothing more than sitting down in the bunker with an old Betamax tape of a 1970s paranoia thriller such as The Parallax Effect or The Manchurian Candidate while tucking into a can of spam and waiting for news that the machines/FBI/lizards have taken over.
But then, I would say that, wouldn't I?
The idea that the School is "modernizing" a la Tory Party is strangely compelling. Having said that, and I think you acknowledge this, things are indeed changing, however awkwardly. If I can share with you one or two occurrences from my recent rezo-week ... a noted pandit gave us a presentation on the Hare Krishna movement which included getting the entire stream chanting the 'mahamantra' while clapping hands and bobbing up and down (well, some of us anyway). This was followed by some learned remarks on George Harrison's connections to the movement and a solo rendition of "My Sweet Lord". On another occasion I found myself disagreeing with the picture being painted by the 'Look! A Leader!' people on grounds that, as I said, "some so-called 'leaders' are frankly a pain in the arse". It was out of my mouth before I could stop it, but to my relief it brought the house down, with the most prominent leader of all visibly cracking up.
Indecency, vulgarity, obscenity--these are strictly confined to man; he invented them. Among the higher animals there is no trace of them. Mark Twain
I suppose the acceptance of George Harrison and mild obscenity means we are now ready to join the modern world (well, the 1960s anyway).
Kapila, thank you for introducing some perspective into the proceedings.
Son of Moses, what you say makes me think that if this online forum is to continue then perhaps we should look at it being a bulletin board rather than a blog. The beauty of that format is that the discussions that interest people float to the top, while the less relevant ones sink out of sight. Anyone can start a new thread.
The blog format is by its nature a personal diary, or at best the diary of its invited members. That has been useful because I think it's needed a deal of individual bloody-mindedness to keep it going, but maybe a sign of progress would be to democratise things a little bit more? If the front page had 25 threads on it, then it wouldn't feel so cramped.
I think the problem is not so much what is said as the limited space the blog format provides. It sometimes feels a bit like being trapped in a lift with nine people, some of whom are getting on one's nerves, several of whom have terrible BO (unlike my own natural fragrance, which is delicious!) and trying to have a rational discussion to pass the time. Inevitably the louder voices hog the airtime, while others who (may have as much or more to contribute) don't get heard. I know several people (especially women) who have found the blog environment rather too intellectual and threatening.
Although some of the recent discussions have not been to my personal taste, others such as Rudi obviously find some or possibly all of the questions I am interested in irrelevant. It would be good for all of us to be able to feel that it was possible to try things out without it being criticised or censored. We could have a thread on "uncompromising Advaita" side by side with threads on "artists vs proles", "other teachers I have known", "creationism and evolution", "inspiring quotations", "my liberating cardigan", "personal stories in the School" and so on and on.
What do people think about that idea? I suppose if it doesn't work we could always go back to blogging. Does anyone know how to go about setting up a bulletin-board?
Son of Moses said...
"As for Kevin's offbeam contributions, thank God for them. The more unpredictable and surprising we are the more the teaching is likely to be working naturally. More of us should chime in with our own".
Sure, why not? But that's beside the point - my point was that a double standard was being applied by Kevin. He defends the principle of 'offbeam' contributions when he is comfortable with what is posted, but rejects the principle when he dislikes what is being said, arguing:
"the blog has begun to lose its way ..."
"this blog is not the place for them ..."
"a bit like a discussion forum on the future of the Church of England being taken over by people ..."
"But this blog is, I am afraid, about the School ..."
"those ... should perhaps not take part in the discussion ..."
"if you don't share that view, fine. Just don't use this blog ..."
etc etc.
If you are so passionate about 'offbeam' contributions, why don't you speak out when Kevin tries to silence those who express a view that doesn't coincide with his? Especially when their contributions aren't even 'offbeam' but relevant to the subject matter of this blog?
"To restrict our conversation to the 'radical truth', as some might like to do, would be to become boring, unreadable and very, very predictable - all sure signs that it wasn't the truth after all".
But then, nobody has suggested anything remotely of this nature (this is a lovely example of a straw man argument, i.e. an argument created, expressed or exaggerated in such a way that it is easy to refute, and the attribution of that argument to another person).
There are basically the following two options:
a) any kind of contribution should be allowed (SoM, Kapila)
b) contributions should be related to the School / the teaching (most forums would take this view).
Kapila said...
"(rudi said...) "... is a contributing factor to putting off people who feel the blog is 'all over the place' and has 'no focus' (to quote a couple)"
"I can't really accept this as legitimate. The blog is not an organisation that is presenting a particular 'nicely packaged' answer to our problems. The blog is made up of whoever decides to get involved. Hence, it's never going to be structured in this way ... If there is something else to bring or a different voice to be heard then bring it and speak it ... The blog isn't one voice. It's a forum. "
Firstly, practically all internet discussion blogs / groups / forums (many thousands of them) are moderated along such lines, i.e. require that contributions must be at least loosely related to the subject matter of the forum. This has nothing to do with 'packaging' or 'structuring', and it tends to enhance rather than stifle discussion if done IMPARTIALLY.
Secondly, I merely reported, matter of factly, that some people who visited this blog felt it was 'all over the place' / had 'no focus', and that this was a (contributing) factor for them not to get involved. Whether this is 'legitimate' or not is not the point - the point is that to some people this is off-putting. I didn't mean to imply more than that.
"But there is an awful lot of use of the word you. Do you think we could de-personalise the argument a little?"
But this wasn't about Kevin, him personally - it was entirely about his way of running this blog, and his unique way of justifying it.
It was about 'him' only in the sense that he is the only person (so far) on this blog who has argued that certain contributors or contributions or views aren't welcome, i.e. the only person trying to control what is being said. Everybody else seems content with simply expressing their views.
What I am trying to point out is simply that your spiritual
and religious activities are basically selfish.
-Krishnamurti
.
No, I don't know how to go about setting up a bulletin-board but I bet somebody does. (WATD?) A very good idea as it'll mean we can have several parallel conversations running, and it will introduce a bit of discipline which, according to some (although they haven't voiced it on this blog)the current conversations lack.
Bagsy start the liberating cardigan thread. As it so happened I accompanied a very striking tie in the lift yesterday at Mandeville. I'm in favour of ties, gives a chap a defined look.
There's more to a tie, however, than meets the eye. A friend told me of attending a business meeting in Germany a few years back and it was one day in the year, apparently, when women can cut off the ties of men.
There he was, sitting round the board-table, when in marched a phalanx of Amazons, with scissors, and proceeded to snip off the ties at half-mast.
Ties being cut on the bias they curled up their toes and died.
All this was done in silence.
So - consider this - ties being a symbol of masculinity. You may abandon your ties at your peril!
Well, Hare Krishna to you, Kevin!
On the question of artists ... I've just tried to look up the original blog posting but can't find it. However, I did find lots of postings that I have missed over these last months and have to say that this blog is getting to be a bit of a treasury of ideas and learned expositions. Very nice.
But alright, my argument about John Lennon. He was an artist, agreed. The word 'artist', however, is a concept used to describe a thing. So I am happily describing John Lennon with the use of this intellectual device. The moment John Lennon thought of himself as an 'artist' he ceased to be one and became an intellectual. My advice to the artists, therefore, is just get on with it and don't let the Yokos of this world corrupt you with the vanity of an idea of specialness. We think you're special. But that's because we're talentless intellectuals who at least have the humility to admire something we don't understand! This isn't a debate of great import so I am content to leave it at that, even if you counter my - okay fumbling - ideas with something characteristically brilliant.
I'm not going to get into any further arguments, Rudi.
Can you please just let it go?
Oddjob, my bowler-hatted friend,
I wasn't trying to correct you on Lennon. I agree that the problem with artists is when they start to use the "a" word. And for the record, I'm not an artist.
Here's the original post:
http://kaiwalya.blogspot.com/2006/11/nowhere-man.html
Kevin said...
"I'm not going to get into any further arguments, Rudi."
I wasn't talking to you in my last post, I was replying to SoM and Kapila. And don't worry, I won't feel offended if you ignore me :-)
"Can you please just let it go?"
By "it" you mean ... ? ? ?
Q12,
"A blog disapproved of by the leadership might also have much to offer."
Well it might do. This blog wasn't set up (obviously) to curry approval with anyone. Its value, I think, is that it is a place where people can speak as they find. I suppose that the danger of assuming a position of opposition is that one could become quite contorted in trying to remain opposed to Authority.
Confucius said: "The superior man is neither for nor against anything. He is on the side of what is moral".
Having said that, I do rather miss the old name, "Free the Teaching", which is the only thing I have agreed to change. Maybe that was a mistake.
Mind you, the original name was a lot more inflammatory!
Re: Bulletin Boards
I think this is a great idea and the thought has arisen before. With the current format, once a thread is a few steps back on the front page it is difficult to contribute to as it no longer feels 'live' and you suspect no-one is reading it anymore. I'm not an expert on forums but I've done some searching & discovered a few possibilities:
Hyperboards
This is free with no advertising. You can link from the front page to an example forum and a demo where you can try posting things as a guest.
http://www.hyperboards.com/
Google Groups
There appear to be more possibilities with this for a mixture of forum type debate and more creative webpage type submissions. I'm not sure it retains the most recent post at the top of the page but there is an 'Active Older Topics' side bar which tracks things that are still being talked about.
http://groups.google.co.uk
ProBoards
Also free and has limited advertising on a banner along the top of the page.
http://www.proboards.com/
Else search on Google for forum / bulletin board / message boards / free hosting.
The disadvantage is a reduction in quality of presentation. The Blogger format is more immediate.
Kapila
Thanks very much for that. I have created a forum at Hyperboards which is at http://kaiwalya.hyperboards.com.
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